A(nother) Debate

[JokingClown]

I read the thread titled "A Debate", and figured I would give an alternative if anyone is interested. This is something I wrote on why I belive Gay Marriage should be legal.

I believe that gays should have the right to marry. As it is, a civil union does not grant the same rights and benefits as marriage does (although it does grant some.)

We need to split marriage into two separate things, and dispose of Civil Unions. The first part would be everything related to marriage as it is now. Let’s just call it a legal joining. (Really a better term is civil unions; I just didn't want to confuse people because the current civil unions and the ones in my example imply different rights and benefits). Gays could get legally joined, along with any one else as long as it isn't a child and an adult, etc... This grants the same legal rights and benefits as marriage currently does. This would be performed by a Justice of the Peace, who currently marries couples for the legal part of it.

The other half would be "marriage" the religious or ceremonial half. It isn't mucked up with legal stuff. Priests or rabbis or who ever would marry couples. Churches can deny marriage to whomever they wish to.

With that said, I believe that Christians who want to ban gay marriage are for the joining of Church and State. They are for a religious ran country. And, it would be illogical to only run a country partially under religion (like banning gay marriage in the name of God, but letting atheists get married), that means the Christians should believe that the country should be run strictly by the bible.

I am an atheist, yet not gay. If I get married, I am defiling God's name, and his religion as a whole, as I don't believe in him, yet still partaking in a religious ceremony. How is this acceptable to nearly all so-called Christians, yet many of them are appalled at the idea of gays getting married. What about getting divorced and remarried and also sex out of wedlock? The Bible calls these sins. Yet, you rarely hear these people complaining about this, because this would affect them. It all boils down to ignorance, hypocrisy, and/or prejudice. I should note that there are passages in the Bible that condone divorce under certain extreme circumstances, but not sex out of wedlock, most cases of remarriage and divorce.

Arguments against gay marriage I will address: Keep in mind, if you don't use these arguments, my responses do not apply to you.

Slippery Slope Argument:

There should be as much sexual freedom as you can have while still ensuring that no one is abused, which is why there should be 3 clauses for people/things that can marry

- They have to be able to decide for themselves that they want to get married. (This means no in animate objects.)
- They have to be able to communicate, and tell everyone that they do in fact want to get married. (This means no animals)
- Over the age of 18. (This means no minors.)

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Gay marriage, or as the solution stated above calls for, "legal joining" does not hurt anyone. I have heard people say that gay people would suddenly start making out in public and he would be traumatized. First of all, making gay marriage legal is not going to turn millions of people gay, and make them run out into the street to make out. Secondly, if you do happen to see two men or women kiss, that is a very small inconvenience compared to gays being barred from marriage.

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"Marriage is between a man and a woman"
Sometimes this is used to imply that the "Founding Fathers" did not intend for gays to be able to marry, which I'm pretty sure is true. Then again, pointing this out is rather pointless. The Founding Fathers were not GODS. They did not know everything. They didn't seem to have a problem with slavery... (Some did some didn't... enough supported it that it was legal for a long time though.) I know, using the slavery card is cliché, but something only becomes cliché because someone has to say it over and over again, even if it is still just as relevant as the first time.

Also, it should be noted that marriage was never originally a Christian ceremony, most or many cultures have a similar ceremony.

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“We must preserve the traditional marriage.”

Up until recently, marriage was between two people of the same race. Marriage was between people of the same social class. Marriage was decided by the parents of those who were marrying. Until recently, the husband was “king” of the house. They could nearly always get away with beating their wife, and the wife traditionally had no say in financial matters. I could go on, but the point should be blatantly obvious at this point. Perhaps gay marriage is wrong, but using the excuse of preserving tradition is illogical, unless you wish to preserve all tradition.

Not that preserving tradition is bad, but it’s not good to preserve just because it is tradition, but because it has a greater value. I want to preserve the tradition I had with my family of opening presents on Christmas, not because it is tradition, but because I have fond memories of it. So what I am saying is
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"The gays are trying to push their Gay Agenda by pushing for Gay Marriage"
This argument really doesn't deserve my effort in writing a response. People said the same thing about blacks when they wanted equal rights. Cliché comparison? Yes. Relevant, appropriate and true? Yes. They are asking for EQUAL rights. They are not asking for extra. If by “Gay Agenda”, you mean “Equality” then yes, they have an agenda. If by “Gay Agenda” you mean “Homosexual conspiracy to infiltrate America, take over the government, and destroy Christianity” then you are insane.

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"Gays want to steal money through tax benefits."
If straight couples can steal money through tax benefits, and gay couples want to be able to, how are they more evil? If it is because your bible says so, then say that you don't want gay marriage because it isn't moral, don't make up some illogical reason.

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Atheists also have the right to get married, and hundreds of thousands get married in churches and even by priests. I do not understand how atheists are nearly always accepted, and yet gays are not. Atheists swearing on the Holy Bible, inches away from a priest or pastor. They do not believe in God, their vows cannot be meant in the way they were meant to be, how is this not an insult to the Bible, and God? How is this acceptable? What about divorce and second marriages?

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“Homosexuality is not natural”
Really, this is a non-issue if you think about it for just five minutes. According to the Bible, when Eve ate the “apple” (fruit) from the tree, humans received intelligence/etc which set them apart from animals. They received the right to choose what to do, they received a conscience. Wearing clothes is not natural for humans either, according to the Bible, when God came down, Adam and Eve hid them selves, because they were embarrassed to be naked. This is not a natural reaction. Really, people don’t actually care if homosexuality is natural or not, they think it is gross and immoral according to their religion. “Gross” is not a solid argument, and I have talked about religion.

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“Marriage, at its base, has always been a function to serve procreation, and should only be granted to straight couples, since gay couples cannot reproduce naturally”.
Unless you are also willing to ban marriage from infertile couples, older couples who can longer bear children, and couples who just choose to have no children, then the argument is seriously and deeply flawed. I wont even go into the possibilities of a surrogate mother, and all of the good things gay adoption does.

[lizard]

well i will reply to this later, as i have a lot to say on this matter also

[JokingClown]

Pro or anti?

Also, if anyone wants to discuss Gay adoption, Id like it if there was another thread made.